Everybody Hates Pharma

Ep 14
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Pharma Sales and Tech Podcast. Tune in to stay informed, inspired and connected with the world of pharma sales.

[00:00:15] Stefan Repin: Hello, ladies and gentlemen today it's me again, Stefan and with Pharma Sales and Tech podcast. And I have a very unusual and a great guess because you don't see that much innovation on pharma, to be honest. His name is Ahmed Kadous, and he's the CEO founder of Pharma Marts. They've received like a lot of awards. I was checking literally their LinkedIn every month these guys receive one or two awards and I was really I was really curious to find out more about like, what, like how is this startup disrupting the pharma industry? And I wanted to learn new ways how innovation is stepping up in.

[00:00:53] Ahmed Kadous: Welcome. So thank you for hosting me and thank you for the great let's say presentation. And [00:01:00] yeah, what we're trying to do, our best to get let's say the most recognition for our efforts, but yet, of course, been couple of multiple awards,

[00:01:13] Ahmed Kadous: let's say more more and more responsibility. To deliver more perfect and better things in the future as well. So the, the thing starting on your let's say note that the pharma industry it's still one of the very primitive let's say industries in the tech space I've been working for 12 years mainly in the big corporate side of the business. Yet those industries, if you, or companies, if you compare it with for example, different industries like automotive, FMG, or different companies still it is lagging the, let's say the adoption of the technology. So what we're trying to do, which is mainly improving patient's access to medications.

[00:01:56] Ahmed Kadous: So of course there is different let's say underlying causes [00:02:00] for this, but one of the key causes in the inefficiencies in the pharmaceuticals supply chain. So this is what we're trying to solve currently. Still the connection between the different players in the markets still mainly based on the manual processes, which is the phone calls, as well as no visibility of the movement of the products, no visibility of the availability of the products, which is actually all of us felt this during the cop that you are searching for a specific medication you are searching for it at different channels, but yet, You don't have a clear visibility where this product is, which is very crucial at important time for the patient. So, this is what we are trying to help at and what we are trying to be.

[00:02:41] Stefan Repin: Interesting. So, yeah. So basically what would you say in terms of sales, what's the biggest challenge?

[00:02:47] Ahmed Kadous: Yes. Yeah. So for the pharmaceuticals, let's say challenges, which is having the right value for the customers. So this is one of the key challenges that, that we are facing. But yet Mainly [00:03:00] this is sold with having the right partner or porting with different players.

[00:03:04] Ahmed Kadous: If you are thinking about, for example, for the supply chain the problem of the pharmacies is not only about, let's say, having the product, but yet how they are running their business, financing their businesses. So partnering with example, FinTech like banks on microfinance companies let's say our value proposition for our customers.

[00:03:27] Ahmed Kadous: So this how we approach this.

[00:03:29] Stefan Repin: So your customers are pharma, like chain, right? Like network, right? So your customers are B2B right?

[00:03:36] Ahmed Kadous: Yes. Yeah, it's B2B.. Either we have different, type of customers, either individuals, either chain pharmacies, small or big chains. So of course the capitalizing on this, of course, you have, you need to have a tailored let's say value proposition for every and each segment in order to ensure that you are tailoring a specific offering for those let's say customers to solve those problems [00:04:00] here.

[00:04:01] Stefan Repin: And in terms of like selling to pharma, like again, I know you've been working with Takeda, Pfizer, Novartis, so you know, you've been in pharma, you know the market very well, right? You've worked for three very big companies and are the challenges different from when you work with pharma as pharma from like your startup, right?

[00:04:19] Stefan Repin: Is it harder or what are the different angles, what are other problems you are facing than you know now? Because now you were on the buyer side, now you're on the seller side in a way, right? So what are, what's the story here?

[00:04:33] Ahmed Kadous: So, of course the challenges is different as, let's say, as a co-founder versus an employee in a company, even as a manager or head of a department. But yet you are serving a specific, let's say part of the business. Being a co-founder, of course, you need to be, Knowledgeable about everything from the legal structure of the company, the financials, as well as hiring the, the right people.

[00:04:59] Ahmed Kadous: [00:05:00] And the other part, which is let's say it's learning from being in the part of the big corporates, which is adapting the quality and let's say, the controls and the processes of the big companies. Even we're starting a startup on let's say a smaller scale. So this one of the important parts, not about, the differences, but what will be the learnings from the companies as well as the stores. As propose the advantages of this you can test you can analyze the market, get, let's say to the specific direction that have the actions done in a very quick way, which is not there the big part so the smaller the key differences. And for the pharmacy, any specific, of course, it is about, let's say the access to the customers by the, the reputation that you have.

[00:05:45] Ahmed Kadous: If you are in a big pharma companies and you are reaching for a specific customer or already have the brand name that's already there for you to support you, but yet as a store you need to build that you are [00:06:00] on own self and to make sure that you are having the right positioning at the customers' side.

[00:06:04] Stefan Repin: Mm-hmm. Awesome. So, but what are like, pharma is a very conventional industry, right? So when you go to a, let's say you go to a big chain of pharmacies, what are the doubts they're having? Because for me it's obvious that you guys are innovation. They should done it like years ago.

[00:06:21] Stefan Repin: What are the odds they're having? yeah.

[00:06:23] Ahmed Kadous: Yeah, so of course it's not only, I'll tell you something, we're not the first to do so. So there was multiple trials. So as, as you said, it's obvious that this a clear need in the, the market, but yet it was done, let's say, on A very primitive and, and let's say an advanced or uncomplete way.

[00:06:44] Ahmed Kadous: So this is why it didn't fly what we try to do, which is delivering a real value to the customers, not only about digitizing the the procurement process, for example, but yet, Before even let's say having a single code in [00:07:00] our platform, we have focus groups with the pharmacies as well as ensuring that our purchase journey is meeting their, their needs.

[00:07:07] Ahmed Kadous: And this is why we even developed when we selected the technologies, we developed all the our tech in-house in order to. We're delivering a product that's fitting with the needs of the market. So this what we, let's say, give us more let's say easy access or access to the market, as well as the other port, which is complementing your offering.

[00:07:29] Ahmed Kadous: With direct partners. So for example, the financing vertical of the business, the fulfillment or the delivery, it's about complementing the, the, the offering to be appealing for the customer vessel versus the, the convention. So this is what we did in order to ensure that we are breaking the norm of the let's say the process here.

[00:07:50] Stefan Repin: How are you? So we are talking about tech, right? And you know, data is a hot topic like AI. How are you leveraging data? AI? It comes [00:08:00] like your.

[00:08:02] Ahmed Kadous: Yes. Yeah. So, so starting from the customer experience between having let's say for example, Elasticsearch for the customers, which is easing their let's say the searching process for the, the products as well as, for example the integration with the systems of the suppliers or the pharmacies in order to have better data visibility. And after having this let's say a sizeable transactions, we have one of the services which is a market monitor, which is sharing the data insights with the big pharma companies in order to guide them with their commercial offerings as well as raising flag in case if there is a shortage, expected shortage of a specific medication in the upcoming period. So to guide them in, for example, increasing the distribution increasing the production of specific products, all this kind, monetization of the data. So this what we're relying on in the future. We are working on an ARP system. Of course, there [00:09:00] are pieces that we named let's say, the integral part of it using the AI and machine tool as well in order to ensuring that we are automating

[00:09:14] Ahmed Kadous: all the procedure inside the parts..

[00:09:14] Stefan Repin: Awesome by the way, when you're developing the ARP, don't forget about Platforce. We're a CLM and CRM solution. We're small but agile, so we're very flexible. Competitors are big, Veeva, IQVIA, but our difference is that we will fit your processes

[00:09:29] Stefan Repin: so if you have, if anyone like podcast listeners, anyone needs help let us know. Okay. So going back to the data what I'm seeing a lot is that although pharma companies have a lot of data, they not necessarily, they know how to treat the data. They're not how to use it.

[00:09:45] Stefan Repin: Right. Do you maybe, how do you work with your customers about that? Because they need, a lot of them need training, like about how to use your data, how to use that tool. Is that part of it?

[00:09:56] Ahmed Kadous: [00:10:00] I see that the best training is you learning from your customers to develop a product that's fitting their behavior already, their behavior. So this what we're trying to develop, which is having a product that, meet that the expectations and the processes they're currently doing as well as they pushes their journey to be aligned with their thinking preference rather than having a product that's different than, than what they are doing normally and then get them educated on this. So this the thing, so what we developed the platform and of course for the communication of our, let's say, product benefits more than not training on the system, which is through our sales team. We have sales team. We use different channels from the push notifications, SMSs, as well as social media in order to engage with our customers, especially with the release of new options, for example, or new feature. This one of the channels that we're doing here.

[00:10:57] Stefan Repin: Awesome. Like I was [00:11:00] wondering, because because you have a small startup, you have to do I guess a lot of sales. What's your, like, go-to market strategy or like how do get into.

[00:11:09] Ahmed Kadous: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, so actually the thing of course our go-to market, we are doing, mainly as mentioned individuals, small and medium side chain pharmacy. So this is our, let's say, pool of customer port. The other port, which is related to the let's say, the target customers, mainly they are decision makers, either the pharmacy owners or the procurement managers. And our acquisition strategy is mix between the on and offline between the sales team as well as the omni engagement for the pharmacies between the different digital solutions.

[00:11:50] Ahmed Kadous: Let's say the SMSs, the push notifications social media, all this kind of tools as well as coupled with, let's say [00:12:00] more into having the right partnerships through strategic alliances, for example, in order to get access to higher pool of customers.

[00:12:10] Stefan Repin: And do you have like a strategy how to get into this partnership? Alliances, like for example, for us, we've started because Platforce targets the whole wide world, but like our focus is also small and mid-sized companies pharma because, some of them though, they don't need, they don't know how to use Veeva or IQVIA or like our bigger competitors and they need the smaller solutions, which would sort of build the flow based on their processes.

[00:12:36] Stefan Repin: Right? So it's not like they have to learn the product. It's like we feed the product for like a glove for their needs. Right and we, rely that like for example in webinar and like for example doing this podcast because connecting with the leaders in industry those local, like us in LATAM, or Southeast Asia is way, make more convenient and it's more cost efficient than any other sort [00:13:00] of like strategies, like what is your strategy? How do you get, do you get to, to partners, like you go to events or what do you guys do?

[00:13:07] Ahmed Kadous: Yes. Yeah. So of course as with the big corporates or big names, you need to have the right access. So this is the first part of the process. Yeah. So of course having multiple years of experience in the, the pharma industry as well as of course, supported by the experience of the other co-founders, they have huge experience as well at different fields. So we have, let's say it's about the network or having, reaching out for the right person that he can give you let's say the right access or the intro for the key decision maker in this company. As well as of course the other, let's say port as a startup, which is Having the right, for example, investors if you have the right investors you have a network of connections as well and you can capitalized on their network as well, but then you need to let's say to request the right intro from the right person. So this, the thing. [00:14:00] And on the other hand, of course, in the networking events you can reach out for whomever and you can discuss if you have the right let's say presentation or the right idea and the right setup, you can at least get, let's say the contact of that person and the you can conceptualized for it afterwards. So it's either the right intros or through events or whatever can be done yet.

[00:14:23] Stefan Repin: If I'm not mistaken, your investors like Camel Ventures came

[00:14:27] Ahmed Kadous: Actually, yes. Camel Ventures we have multiple, let's say global as well as regional investors. Some of the names for example, plug and play launch Africa from UCL Alumni Ventures, and we have other investors as well as of course Camel Venture, but yet we have a very good cap table. So as well as reaching leading investors in Egypt, Africa, as well as globally. So this is a very important part that as a startup you need to capitalize on your network of investors as well.

[00:14:58] Stefan Repin: I would say, for a [00:15:00] startup, well, of course you can think about like, are you a seed stage or like you are like, you know, pass through your a a series and on. But I think it's very important to think not only about the money and the conditions that the VC is bringing you.

[00:15:16] Stefan Repin: Basically if a VC doesn't help you with partnerships with network. It's not better than any bank, right? Like the bank

[00:15:22] Ahmed Kadous: Yes.

[00:15:23] Stefan Repin: take a share in your company. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that. Maybe like how did you choose investors? Was it important that they have partnerships, that they work with pharma and so on?

[00:15:32] Ahmed Kadous: Yeah. So it's very important to select the right investors. So of course, it's based on your let's say stage and your plans, for example at Pharmacy Marts we are planning to expand further outside the country in the future. So for example, mainly our key market is African the African market. So this is why we have different multiple African investors in order to give us access to the market and yet distribute the investors who [00:16:00] have investors from Egypt, from North Africa, from Sub-Saharan Africa in order to have access to different regions as well as the other port which is attracting global investors.

[00:16:11] Ahmed Kadous: For example, investors with very well known names, like for example, Plug and Play Alumni Ventures. They're very well recognized globally as well. Yeah, so this gives you, as an early startup, of course more solid ground when you are talking with different investors that already I, I'm having those investors.

[00:16:30] Ahmed Kadous: So of course it gives you access. And on that other hand, it's somewhat connection with other investors with let's say, of course, having a very strong looking investor like Camel Ventures already supported by different, huge let's say banks at Egypt. So they're having a very good network of connections.

[00:16:49] Ahmed Kadous: For example Plug and Play, for example, on the other hand, having a local office here in Egypt. So they have a local team. They have a very good connection with the government, with the different let's say [00:17:00] key entities at Egypt as well. So the selection of course is not about the money, but yet value added either to partnership, either connections so it's a mix of all of this.

[00:17:16] Stefan Repin: My question will be again, about maybe some specifics focusing on Africa. So working in an international company that you had before, Takeda, Pfizer, like Novartis, and right now you're having your own startup. What are the specifics of selling in Africa, like North Africa, maybe South Africa, central Africa the Saharan part, like are they more digital?

[00:17:37] Stefan Repin: Less digital? Do people believe more in face-to-face meetings? Like events? Like can you maybe talk about that?

[00:17:43] Ahmed Kadous: Yeah, so of course let's say at Africa, especially at Egypt, face-to-face is the king and the sales in this sector pharma companies have been doing this for the past, like actually 50 years. So this is the way to go if you want to access this market, [00:18:00] especially in the B2B space. Especially if you are providing a new solution you need somehow to gain the trust of your customer, especially when you are dealing with the medication, the pharmaceuticals. So somehow there is a lot of questions related to the sources, sources of the medications, all this kind of stuff. So it's not only about selling the product, put the bulk price then you can sell it. You need it to somehow be within the regulatory regulatory framework, ensuring that you're even transporting the products within a very controlled environment. All of this needs to be done and needs to be communicated to your customers as well in order to ensure that you are having let's say, part of the share quality of your customers.

[00:18:44] Stefan Repin: Mm-hmm. Cool. So basically you're saying face-to-face is still king in Africa. So like, let's say if I'm a new pharma company and I'm trying to sell a new pharma product, then I should still think about mostly getting a Salesforce, active Salesforce there, right?

[00:18:58] Ahmed Kadous: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It needs to be [00:19:00] done. Of course, you can compliment this with other channels, but yet, especially at the early beginnings, of course, you need to be dependent on the face to face.

[00:19:10] Stefan Repin: I'm wondering, did Corona change anything in the way how people like interact? Because a lot of, a lot of pharma companies didn't believe in digital sales and digital marketing, and once Corona came, they were pushed to do that and now a lot of them, Changed, right? They changed their boots and now they're like, oh, well we now believe in digital marketing and digital sales.

[00:19:29] Ahmed Kadous: Yeah.

[00:19:29] Ahmed Kadous: So of course it changed, let's say as you mentioned, from the focus from the former companies and the spending before the covid, it was, let's say a marginal thing. And you don't spend on it, on, you don't focus on it. I've been in the this for 12 years. But yet what's important, more important, not only the pharma companies, but yet the acceptance by the people of course the covid accelerated the acceptance of the general [00:20:00] population to the digital solutions. And of course, as part of the bigger, let's say population, of course the pharmacies, this industry as well impacted by the usage of, over the acceleration of the usage of the digital solutions.

[00:20:15] Ahmed Kadous: So this a very important part on the other. Let's say hand, of course having different digital easy to use digital tools somehow accelerated the adoption of the pharma companies to spend more and to focus more on the digital engagement as well as the digital solution. But yet I don't see it as a sole channel of engaging customers, but yet it needs to be let's say a part of a full value.

[00:20:42] Ahmed Kadous: Face to face, of course. Yeah.

[00:20:44] Stefan Repin: Mm-hmm. So how do you, like in your company, how do you use like data and analytics to improve your, like your sales efforts, if you're using any?

[00:20:53] Ahmed Kadous: So, so mainly it is the, let's say about creating the right funnels from the, targeting the right customers, as well [00:21:00] as let's say targeting having specific funnels for the conversion and the retention of the customers, as well as coming from this funnel. You need to develop a specific KPIs for the team.

[00:21:11] Ahmed Kadous: Strategies followed by KPIs in order to ensure the alignment of the team at, let's say, tracking those KPIs as well as providing them. For example, we have our own sales team app in order to ensure that we're giving them the KPIs and that the sales funnel and we are providing them with the tools in order to ensure that we only have this on,

[00:21:32] Ahmed Kadous: let's say regular basis, which is availability of live data for the sales team in order to guide them in their daily decision. And this type of, let's say, improvement of the availability of the date was not there previously. For example, as a pharma company. Yeah, pharma company. I work actually started my career as sales rep, so I've been there in this position at that time, you only have [00:22:00] access to your sales data once per month.

[00:22:03] Ahmed Kadous: So it's totally different. Yeah. Big pharma companies currently, you can have real live data of your sales data, your customers, their interaction, all this kind of stuff. So this improves a lot, your guidance and your maneuvering through let's say the quick decision in order to ensure that you are comforting the loyal customers as well as retaining the new customers.

[00:22:30] Stefan Repin: Hmm. I have an interesting fact I was talking to a different guest, James Harper the other week, and we're talking about the fact that like marketing or like digital marketing like sales and pharma, they're a bit lagging behind because of lack of data. And I was really curious.

[00:22:45] Stefan Repin: I actually knew that in the Western world pharma reps are not allowed to take any notes on the calls with doctors because it does hinder it's something according to like privacy and so on. And it was [00:23:00] very interesting. I was to hear that because like if you don't have that data, you go on a, on a call, right?

[00:23:05] Stefan Repin: Like normal sales call and you don't have the data and you're not allowed to have notes, then you have to keep it in your memory and eventually you cannot personalize like, Like how you talk to this person is it, it's just like so weird. It is like, okay, and then you, when you send a message through, like omnichannel, you don't know who, like what doctor wants, what information, what doctor is interested in what product, because you're not allowed to gather that data this is like I.

[00:23:32] Ahmed Kadous: Yeah, so this is true for the pharma. So of course the tailoring as well as having a specific messaging for every in reach customer so it's not there. For example, we have a unique and individualized experience for per user based on there previous purchased, based on their, for example, geography. So there is a lot of let's say tailoring and adaptation that we can be done in order to ensure [00:24:00] that every single customer having a dealer thing, experience..

[00:24:06] Stefan Repin: Awesome. Okay. I have a question about like how you using, because you're obviously young and you're like, yeah in a startup, are you using maybe like ChatGPT or are you using any major related technology according to like for sales or marketing in your startup?

[00:24:23] Ahmed Kadous: Yeah, so I will tell you something. Of course, coming from let's say very primitive manual processes, having the basic digital let's say availability of data, analyzing the data, having all this kind of tailored user experience. Still a huge advancement, still a huge oral lengthy way ahead, still in the using of AI and machine learning in this sector.

[00:24:46] Ahmed Kadous: Of course, for me, we are using the AI, I personally use ChatGPT. So this, one of the things that been regularly using which is, for example, if I'm searching on a specific topic specific [00:25:00] research for a specific thing, it's easier to maneuver through with ChatGPT rather than than the normal search.

[00:25:06] Ahmed Kadous: And the other part that we see afterwards, which is utilizing the AI in our platform as well in the future. So we're currently working on this.

[00:25:16] Stefan Repin: Okay, I got my last question, which is for pharma companies who are trying to penetrate the, let's say the pharma market, right? Like new startups like yourself, right? Who trying to sell into B2B, what would be would be the advice you can give them?

[00:25:32] Ahmed Kadous: So the first advice will be less listen to the customer, have the right research before before starting. So this one of the key let's say learnings as well as Digging in the data and the analysis, deep analysis of the outcomes of transactions, the customer behavior.

[00:25:49] Ahmed Kadous: All these things will, let's say save you a lot of money and a lot of time. So it's one of the things. And on the other hand, of course, having the right partners to push you [00:26:00] further. For example, it needs to be either. For example, as co-founding team, of course, this is a very important part to consider and the right external partners, either investors, either business partners as well, either like banks, like companies, all this partners, boost your business, and of course all this needs to be done with the right technological foundation, you need to ensure that your tech product is somehow scalable as well as it can be adapted with the scale. As of course, while you expand to other or different regions, you'll face different challenges and you need to adapt accordingly in order to ensure that having or providing the right experience for the customers.

[00:26:42] Stefan Repin: Mm-hmm. Awesome. Thank you so much for the episode. It was a pleasure meeting you. We had a lot of insights. Hopefully our listeners we'll be glad to hear that and they will learn a lot about.

[00:26:56] Ahmed Kadous: Okay. So it's thank you've been a great pleasure [00:27:00] and hope this will be for everyone starting their journey in the startup. And thank for this opportunity.

[00:27:08] Stefan Repin: Pleasure is mine. Thank you.

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